Please post your question, comment, or connection here. Feel free to include your thoughts related to the hero's quest archetype or to the big ideas of friendship, loyalty, personal responsibility, identity, self-knowledge, perception, etc.
Even though Reuven’s father has made many efforts to fuel Danny’s pursuit of his interests unrelated to Judaism, through actions like recommending books for him and encouraging Reuven to be his friend, he still seems to ultimately believe that Danny, for all his brilliance and yearning, will end up as a Tzaddik. Why? Has he no faith in Danny to break away from Hasidic tradition? And if this is true, why does he continue to feed Danny’s desires to be something other than a Tzaddik? Perhaps it is because that even if Danny assumes his father’s position, Reuven’s father believes that it is the duty of a leader to guide his people in the right direction, and he knows that one must rely on more than ancient scripts if they wish to lead properly. Perhaps, Danny can become a leader who fuses the old, with the new, and enables the Hasidic community to learn and grow more than they ever had before.
As Danny explains to Reuven, "It's a family tradition" that "goes all the way back" (143). Among other things, it makes the congregation proud of their Tzaddik and his son. Mr. Malter points out to Reuven that this public quizzing (minus the deliberate errors) is common in students seeking a doctorate. He says, "If a person has a contribution to make, he must make it in public. If learning is not made public, it is a waste" (147).
danny’s neighborhood is much more chaotic and busy than reuven’s, it seems much more violent and dangerous. there’s a much wider variety of people within the neighborhood, which can lead to conflicts within the community. i infer that a conflict will break out within danny’s community and he will have to reside with reuven, where their friendship will continue to develop (friendships, arguments, angst, etc…)
That's an interesting inference. I disagree however, that I feel like Danny's community is more obedient therefore there's little chance that there will be communal turmoil, unless there's some action of Danny's father that raises conflict though that is highly unlikely. I however believe that Danny and Reuven's relationship will suffer consequence due to the religious tension between Danny's community and Reuven.
I found it interesting that after Danny found the mistake in his father’s speech, he stopped listening. He truly didn’t have any interest in what Reb Saunders was saying, Danny just wanted his father to be proud of him. Unlike all of the other people listening to Reb Saunder’s speech, Danny isn’t captivated or amazed by his father.
Adding on to this idea, Reuven and his father's relationship is quite the opposite of Danny and Reb Saunders'. Reuven enjoys talking to his father, and feels that he can open up to him, while Danny feels as though he needs to impress his father with his knowledge of the Talmud. I wonder if Danny feels any sort of jealousy for the type of father-son relationship that Reuven has, and if that will become more prominent as the story continues.
With that in mind, its interesting to think back on how Danny doesn't want to become a rabbi but is most likely going to anyways. he feels like its his duty to carry on. He know there are a lot of people counting on him to step up when he grows up. He feels like he will mess it up if he doesn't become a rabbi.
I also think it is interesting how Danny’s father said more to Reuven than to Danny, with the exception of the questions about Reb Saunders’s speech. Reuven and his father have meaningful conversations and open up to each other. I think that this may have something to do with how Danny is inheriting his father’s role as a rabbi, even if he wishes to be something else. Reuven seems to have a bit more freedom than Danny about how he leads his life.
With Danny's father wanting him to be a rabbi and Danny himself not wanting that, it seems as though he wants to distance himself as much as he can from the possibility of being one
I found it interesting that Reb is disinterested in everything besides religion. This shows up at the baseball game and at the church. This seems to create a boundary between Danny and Reb. Also there is a mutual disregard for each other’s interests. While Danny likes to learn and doesn’t seem to keen on becoming a rabbi this is Rebs only interest, caring on his legacy and learning in the Torah.
I agree. Danny seems to have a hard time expressing his ‘true colors’ to his father. While Reuven and his father’s relationship is more on the friendly side, Danny and his father seem to be more of an apprentice and master relationship built on religion. Where Danny has strict rules to follow, and consequences to his ‘sinful’ actions.
This is a change in perception for Reuven. He is getting a glimpse into the typical day for Danny. To him, it all seems like a cold, well oiled machine. To Danny, it has been his whole entire life. It also raises another interesting point. He even witnesses the sort of ‘game’ play out between Danny and his father, noticing how Danny becomes cold and mechanical. I think this game he plays with his father has layers to it. By playing this game with his father, he is gaining approval. Yet what happens when it is his time to take over as rabbi? Danny obviously has bigger aspirations that he strives towards, yet the approval of his father and people still remains and influenced for him.
I think it’s because Danny’s seen “tests” like this one unlike everyone else, who are sucked in to the story. In addition, Danny only becomes uninterested when he discovers the falsehood in what his father had to say.
At the end of Chapter 7, it is very clear that Reuven's father has a great deal of respect for Reb Saunders. Although the Saunders are Hasidic, Reuven's father is very mature and believes that they are still respectable people even if their religions differ. I really like how Reuven's dad teaches Reuven these lessons/gives his perspective on this (kind of like Atticus to Scout) and even encourages Reuven to be Danny's friend. (Reuven's dad is portrayed as very observing as well, as he notices that Danny doesn't have many close friends.) However, Danny and his father don't seem to have as close of a relationship as Reuven and his father.
Another thing I noticed was that between Reuven and Danny, there are many things that seem to be opposites, another one being that Danny wants to be a psychologist but is forced to be a rabbi, whereas Reuven wants to be a rabbi but is forced to be a mathematician. I think it may be because of these opposites that Reuven's father pushes Reuven to become friends with Danny (and Reb Saunders actually approves of their friendship), and this may be some sort of foreshadowing as well, as maybe Reuven will end up being a rabbi and Danny a psychologist.
Adding on to your first point, I really want to emphasize the fact that to outsiders, including Reuven, Reb Saunders seems very intimidating and scary. I think that despite him being reserved and religious, he is a good role model and hopes for the best for his kids. He was 'testing' Reuven to see if he was 'worthy' of being Danny's friend. That can either be seen as intrusive and wrong, but I also think that he is breaking many social boundaries and making sure that his son is making good, beneficial decisions.
Also, Reuven's father makes an effort to bring Danny and Reuven together, thus exposing Reuven to the Hasidic community and lifestyle. Not only is Reb Saunders looking out for Danny, but Mr. Malter is making sure his son has as few blind spots as possible.
I think that it is important to note the prevalent metaphors here, especially with Reuven's eye injury. After this injury, and when recovering, it gave him the opportunity to see the world differently. His father pushed him to explore and branch out, but this would not have been possible without the obvious eye injury.
I’m really keen on using Reuven’s fathers example of the boy named Maimon. As we learned about Danny’s struggles in venturing away from the strict Hasidic tradition and being characterized as lonely, it really seems like Reuven’s father is Danny’s only hope. After hearing of Maimon’s tragic story of attempting to venture out but dying unfulfilled I really believe Reueven’s father can take it upon himself to make sure Danny doesn’t end up that way. I believe it to be unfair for Reb Saunders to confine his son like that and I believe Reuevens father can help Danny pursue his interests and posssibly confront Reb Saunders on letting his son pursue his dreams. It’s sad to see a talent like Danny have to become a tzaddik when he doesn’t want to.
I agree with this point. If there was no division between the jewish beliefs, Danny and Reuven could have already been friends for a long time. But, because there is this separation, it created animosity between the two at first. If Reuven never got hurt, he would have never found Danny to be his friend and this isolation would have continued. I see this as a warning to the future of segregation like foreshadowing...
I think this chapter has been good for all the characters, particularly Reuven, as he gained some of Danny’s perspective. Starting the chapter with Reauven and his father on the Shabbat and then seeing the Saunders’ allows us to contrast the two. First the services seem extremely different, but we can see the similarities between David Malter and Reb Saunders in their devotion and knowledge of Jewish law.
Yes, there are certain similarities between the two. While previously their religious groups were divided from each other, maybe Reuven’s friendship with Danny will improve relations between their fathers and their respective religious groups.
I am curious why Danny knows so much about Talmudic precepts. We learned earlier in the book that Danny had no interest in doing what his father does when he grows up yet he still knows so much. I agree with the idea that this must have a lot to do with the relationship between Danny and his father. Danny might feel pressures to study what his father does and might not have told him the truth about what he wants on the future.
In your last sentence, you've anticipated one of the biggest conflicts in the novel! Just as Pip and Romeo and Juliet were not always forthcoming with what drove them, so too Danny is reluctant to tell his father what he really wants. As for the pressure on Danny to study what his father does, it is an expectation that a whole community is invested in. He is the next in line to his father's leadership role and seems to have no choice in the matter.
I think this chapter really fleshed out the dynamics between the main characters. While Danny and Reuven are creating a bond through their friendship, Reuven becomes aware of Danny's side of the story, and of his motivations and challenges with his father.
I found it interesting that even though the fathers have some obvious differences they both approve of the boys’ friendship. I think that this added security plus the knowledge and new perspective they gain from each other’s father and community will be very important for the development of the boys and their friendship.
I'm kind of concerned/confused at the way there seems to be a bias towards Reuven's culture. Danny is portrayed as if he is trying to escape from his culture by seeking more secular knowledge. His father is also very strict and cold with him, wanting to approve of his friendships and making Danny demonstrate his knowledge. Hopefully, this is just Reuven's view of the situation, being biased himself, as I think finding similarities with "someone different" is a lot less powerful if this "different person" is not really a good representation of their group.
It's interesting how Danny's father sees himself in Reuven and how Reuven's father see himself in Danny. I think this shows how just because parents are able to influence their children, it's not always how they intend. Each father wants their son to be like him, but by forcing this ideal onto them, they end up pushing their sons to be unlike them.
Even though Reuven’s father has made many efforts to fuel Danny’s pursuit of his interests unrelated to Judaism, through actions like recommending books for him and encouraging Reuven to be his friend, he still seems to ultimately believe that Danny, for all his brilliance and yearning, will end up as a Tzaddik. Why? Has he no faith in Danny to break away from Hasidic tradition? And if this is true, why does he continue to feed Danny’s desires to be something other than a Tzaddik?
ReplyDeletePerhaps it is because that even if Danny assumes his father’s position, Reuven’s father believes that it is the duty of a leader to guide his people in the right direction, and he knows that one must rely on more than ancient scripts if they wish to lead properly. Perhaps, Danny can become a leader who fuses the old, with the new, and enables the Hasidic community to learn and grow more than they ever had before.
Why did he feel the need to make the deliberate errors? Was it because he was testing his knowledge?
ReplyDeleteAs Danny explains to Reuven, "It's a family tradition" that "goes all the way back" (143). Among other things, it makes the congregation proud of their Tzaddik and his son. Mr. Malter points out to Reuven that this public quizzing (minus the deliberate errors) is common in students seeking a doctorate. He says, "If a person has a contribution to make, he must make it in public. If learning is not made public, it is a waste" (147).
Deletedanny’s neighborhood is much more chaotic and busy than reuven’s, it seems much more violent and dangerous. there’s a much wider variety of people within the neighborhood, which can lead to conflicts within the community. i infer that a conflict will break out within danny’s community and he will have to reside with reuven, where their friendship will continue to develop (friendships, arguments, angst, etc…)
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting inference. I disagree however, that I feel like Danny's community is more obedient therefore there's little chance that there will be communal turmoil, unless there's some action of Danny's father that raises conflict though that is highly unlikely. I however believe that Danny and Reuven's relationship will suffer consequence due to the religious tension between Danny's community and Reuven.
DeleteI found it interesting that after Danny found the mistake in his father’s speech, he stopped listening. He truly didn’t have any interest in what Reb Saunders was saying, Danny just wanted his father to be proud of him. Unlike all of the other people listening to Reb Saunder’s speech, Danny isn’t captivated or amazed by his father.
ReplyDeleteAdding on to this idea, Reuven and his father's relationship is quite the opposite of Danny and Reb Saunders'. Reuven enjoys talking to his father, and feels that he can open up to him, while Danny feels as though he needs to impress his father with his knowledge of the Talmud. I wonder if Danny feels any sort of jealousy for the type of father-son relationship that Reuven has, and if that will become more prominent as the story continues.
DeleteWith that in mind, its interesting to think back on how Danny doesn't want to become a rabbi but is most likely going to anyways. he feels like its his duty to carry on. He know there are a lot of people counting on him to step up when he grows up. He feels like he will mess it up if he doesn't become a rabbi.
DeleteI also think it is interesting how Danny’s father said more to Reuven than to Danny, with the exception of the questions about Reb Saunders’s speech. Reuven and his father have meaningful conversations and open up to each other. I think that this may have something to do with how Danny is inheriting his father’s role as a rabbi, even if he wishes to be something else. Reuven seems to have a bit more freedom than Danny about how he leads his life.
DeleteWith Danny's father wanting him to be a rabbi and Danny himself not wanting that, it seems as though he wants to distance himself as much as he can from the possibility of being one
DeleteI found it interesting that Reb is disinterested in everything besides religion. This shows up at the baseball game and at the church. This seems to create a boundary between Danny and Reb. Also there is a mutual disregard for each other’s interests. While Danny likes to learn and doesn’t seem to keen on becoming a rabbi this is Rebs only interest, caring on his legacy and learning in the Torah.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Danny seems to have a hard time expressing his ‘true colors’ to his father. While Reuven and his father’s relationship is more on the friendly side, Danny and his father seem to be more of an apprentice and master relationship built on religion. Where Danny has strict rules to follow, and consequences to his ‘sinful’ actions.
DeleteThis is a change in perception for Reuven. He is getting a glimpse into the typical day for Danny. To him, it all seems like a cold, well oiled machine. To Danny, it has been his whole entire life. It also raises another interesting point. He even witnesses the sort of ‘game’ play out between Danny and his father, noticing how Danny becomes cold and mechanical. I think this game he plays with his father has layers to it. By playing this game with his father, he is gaining approval. Yet what happens when it is his time to take over as rabbi? Danny obviously has bigger aspirations that he strives towards, yet the approval of his father and people still remains and influenced for him.
ReplyDeleteIt makes me wonder how each father will differ in how they are either supportive of their children's choices, or disappointed.
DeleteI find it interesting how while everyone is captured by Danny’s father, Danny seems to have a lack of interest. I’m wondering, why?
ReplyDeleteI think it’s because Danny’s seen “tests” like this one unlike everyone else, who are sucked in to the story. In addition, Danny only becomes uninterested when he discovers the falsehood in what his father had to say.
DeleteAt the end of Chapter 7, it is very clear that Reuven's father has a great deal of respect for Reb Saunders. Although the Saunders are Hasidic, Reuven's father is very mature and believes that they are still respectable people even if their religions differ. I really like how Reuven's dad teaches Reuven these lessons/gives his perspective on this (kind of like Atticus to Scout) and even encourages Reuven to be Danny's friend. (Reuven's dad is portrayed as very observing as well, as he notices that Danny doesn't have many close friends.) However, Danny and his father don't seem to have as close of a relationship as Reuven and his father.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I noticed was that between Reuven and Danny, there are many things that seem to be opposites, another one being that Danny wants to be a psychologist but is forced to be a rabbi, whereas Reuven wants to be a rabbi but is forced to be a mathematician. I think it may be because of these opposites that Reuven's father pushes Reuven to become friends with Danny (and Reb Saunders actually approves of their friendship), and this may be some sort of foreshadowing as well, as maybe Reuven will end up being a rabbi and Danny a psychologist.
Adding on to your first point, I really want to emphasize the fact that to outsiders, including Reuven, Reb Saunders seems very intimidating and scary. I think that despite him being reserved and religious, he is a good role model and hopes for the best for his kids. He was 'testing' Reuven to see if he was 'worthy' of being Danny's friend. That can either be seen as intrusive and wrong, but I also think that he is breaking many social boundaries and making sure that his son is making good, beneficial decisions.
DeleteAlso, Reuven's father makes an effort to bring Danny and Reuven together, thus exposing Reuven to the Hasidic community and lifestyle. Not only is Reb Saunders looking out for Danny, but Mr. Malter is making sure his son has as few blind spots as possible.
I think that it is important to note the prevalent metaphors here, especially with Reuven's eye injury. After this injury, and when recovering, it gave him the opportunity to see the world differently. His father pushed him to explore and branch out, but this would not have been possible without the obvious eye injury.
I’m really keen on using Reuven’s fathers example of the boy named Maimon. As we learned about Danny’s struggles in venturing away from the strict Hasidic tradition and being characterized as lonely, it really seems like Reuven’s father is Danny’s only hope. After hearing of Maimon’s tragic story of attempting to venture out but dying unfulfilled I really believe Reueven’s father can take it upon himself to make sure Danny doesn’t end up that way. I believe it to be unfair for Reb Saunders to confine his son like that and I believe Reuevens father can help Danny pursue his interests and posssibly confront Reb Saunders on letting his son pursue his dreams. It’s sad to see a talent like Danny have to become a tzaddik when he doesn’t want to.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting how two people can be alike and not even know it. Reminds me of prejudice and how your pre composed opinions can cloud reality.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this point. If there was no division between the jewish beliefs, Danny and Reuven could have already been friends for a long time. But, because there is this separation, it created animosity between the two at first. If Reuven never got hurt, he would have never found Danny to be his friend and this isolation would have continued. I see this as a warning to the future of segregation like foreshadowing...
DeleteI think this chapter has been good for all the characters, particularly Reuven, as he gained some of Danny’s perspective. Starting the chapter with Reauven and his father on the Shabbat and then seeing the Saunders’ allows us to contrast the two. First the services seem extremely different, but we can see the similarities between David Malter and Reb Saunders in their devotion and knowledge of Jewish law.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are certain similarities between the two. While previously their religious groups were divided from each other, maybe Reuven’s friendship with Danny will improve relations between their fathers and their respective religious groups.
DeleteI am curious why Danny knows so much about Talmudic precepts. We learned earlier in the book that Danny had no interest in doing what his father does when he grows up yet he still knows so much. I agree with the idea that this must have a lot to do with the relationship between Danny and his father. Danny might feel pressures to study what his father does and might not have told him the truth about what he wants on the future.
ReplyDeleteIn your last sentence, you've anticipated one of the biggest conflicts in the novel! Just as Pip and Romeo and Juliet were not always forthcoming with what drove them, so too Danny is reluctant to tell his father what he really wants. As for the pressure on Danny to study what his father does, it is an expectation that a whole community is invested in. He is the next in line to his father's leadership role and seems to have no choice in the matter.
DeleteI think this chapter really fleshed out the dynamics between the main characters. While Danny and Reuven are creating a bond through their friendship, Reuven becomes aware of Danny's side of the story, and of his motivations and challenges with his father.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting that even though the fathers have some obvious differences they both approve of the boys’ friendship. I think that this added security plus the knowledge and new perspective they gain from each other’s father and community will be very important for the development of the boys and their friendship.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of concerned/confused at the way there seems to be a bias towards Reuven's culture. Danny is portrayed as if he is trying to escape from his culture by seeking more secular knowledge. His father is also very strict and cold with him, wanting to approve of his friendships and making Danny demonstrate his knowledge. Hopefully, this is just Reuven's view of the situation, being biased himself, as I think finding similarities with "someone different" is a lot less powerful if this "different person" is not really a good representation of their group.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting how Danny's father sees himself in Reuven and how Reuven's father see himself in Danny. I think this shows how just because parents are able to influence their children, it's not always how they intend. Each father wants their son to be like him, but by forcing this ideal onto them, they end up pushing their sons to be unlike them.
ReplyDelete